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for mtuparent-L (discussion list)
Subject:
Teachers who are hard to understand
Fri, 17 Mar 2000
From: MTU student
As a current student at MTU, I know what it is like to have foreign instructors.
They are all usually very nice people and I am sure that they know the
subject very well (this is supposed to be a requirement) and could easily
teach it to someone who knows their language. To someone who speaks English,
however, foreign teachers are immensly hard to understand, even when you
ask them many times to repeat what they have said. It becomes very frustrating
to succeed in a class when you cannot understand the instructor. This
is NOT an issue of whether or not the person is foreign, but whether the
person can clearly communicate the correct information. With many (not
all) foreign teachers, the information is not communicated clearly enough
to learn.
_______
From: R. & S. G.
The difficulties with partial language barriers in a technical teaching
environment is sad and the student pays the final price for compromised
teaching. My son had FIVE FOREIGN - BORN INSTRUCTORS AT THE SAME TIME
AT MICHIGAN TECH. An English-impaired instructor in an engineering school
is an unnecessary learning load to a student. Possibly a school should
offer discounted tuition credit-hour charges when an instructor has notable
difficulty communicating in spoken English.
_______
From: L. B.
Good point, I have had trouble understanding the foreign Dr.'s at children
hosp. in Detroit.
_______
From: D. A
*** if they can save my life ...i don't care if they speak martian !!
Sat, 18 Mar 2000
From: D.A.
Even in High School, this is becoming a growing problem. My daughter is
having major problems with Physics at Cass Tech because of a foreign-born
teacher. Much as we would like to be sensitive to that person's feelings,
it is something that MUST be addressed if the next generation of Americans
are going to "keep up," as it were, with other nations in the
scientific fields. Should America lag behind, we could very well become
a akin to third world power. (Not to mention the money we put into that
education... are we to toss those funds out the window???)
Perhaps a solution would be to require teachers from foreign lands to
take specialized courses in English (pronunciation) to alleviate this
problem. We cannot allow our fear of "hurting someone's feelings"
to get in the way when it is our children's education, our money going
into that education and, possibly, the future of this country at stake!
my 2 cents... am I "going-on-a-nut or what?" *G*
_______
From: D. R.
*** perhaps we should have a curriculum on listening to a variety of languages
and dialects' in your local high school ??
_______
From: D. A.
Not really cost-effective, Dave. But we have to admit that all our thoughts
on solutions are just pipe-dreams anyway... Oh well!
_______
From: K. M. D.
No one is addressing the basis for why our schools and universities are
using foreign born instructors. Are our educational system and values
so out of wack that our nation cannot produce people who have the knowledge
and ability and the motivation to teach? The ones who have the expertise
go into better paying positions, forcing our schools to go outside the
US to fill positions.
_______
From: J.C.
Much as we would like to be sensitive to that person's feelings, it is
something that MUST be addressed if the next generation of Americans are
going to "keep up," as it were, with other nations in the scientific
fields.
With all due respect, is it not the case that scientists who immigrate
do so to fill a void, that "we" have indeed already fallen behind?
It has been my impression that, at least in math and science, our educational
system has been significantly "dumbed down" with these predictable
results.
I don't think it's some Utopian ideal of "diversity" that results
in the employment of so many teachers whose first language is not English,
but a pragmatic result of seeking the most accomplished and talented people
available to fill the positions.
Maybe the answer lies in meeting halfway -- the students making a more
strenuous effort to understand, and the professors working with linguists
to translate what they know to colloquial written English as syllabi or
textbooks, and making more strenuous efforts to improve their spoken English.
_______
From: D. A.
Unfortunately, James, those who are most accomplished and talented usually
go to
other better-paying jobs! That is one of the problems this country has
in
keeping it's teachers... lousy pay.
In fact, my daughter wanted to be a teacher until she saw
the pay scale ... she
said, "the heck with that! I'm going to write novels!" *G*
_______
From: C. R.
Maybe the answer lies in meeting halfway -- the students making a more
strenuous effort to understand, and the professors working with linguists
to translate what they know to colloquial written English as syllabi or
textbooks, and making more strenuous efforts to improve their spoken English.
As a Tech student right now, I can say that a lot of students
don't bother to *try* to understand, they just complain. However, there
are some of us who ARE trying, and are still having trouble. So far I
think I've had 3 foreign instructors. Two of them I had no trouble understanding,
although I did have to learn to listen to the accent. The third however,
would often ask my class for the word he was missing, and most of the
time it would take quite a while to guess it, because we didn't know what
concept he was trying to teach. It's hard enough to deal with very different
accents, but those can be figured out by the students with a little effort.
It's MUCH harder to try to guess what your calculus teacher is trying
to say when he's covering an entirely new concept.
_______
From: L. W.
Kathy has some interesting points . . .
No one is addressing the basis for why our schools and
universities are using foreign born instructors. Are our educational system
and values so out of wack that our nation cannot produce people who have
the knowledge and ability and the motivation to teach?
There is no doubt that a large percentage of American students
see sports and activities as more important than school and studies. Watch
when your local school district has a sports team doing well -- and compare
to what
happens when students do well in acedemics. And the parents support the
schools in this.
In addition, the old "work ethic" has fallen out
of favor in our society -- but many who come here to study still believe
in work, so they advance.
The ones who have the expertise go into better paying positions,
forcing our schools to go outside the US to fill positions.
Perhaps . . . but having instructors who do not have a command
of the English language compounds the problem. Students otherwise able
become frustrated and change majors.
I know this was a problem in the early 70's, but had not
heard many complaints about it in recent years -- until now.
There are many other reasons for having instructors who cannot communicate
with their students, and perhaps Dennis could fill us in on some of the
other reasons, or discuss the matter here with us.
Mon, 20 Mar 2000
From: D.R.
as noted communications is a dual responsiblity and frustrations are part
of
the real world...the two together if solved would be the best education
any of us ever got !!
_______
From D. R.
get over it. the earth revolves around the sun ....not the united states.
we live, work and pleasure in a global village...with diverse
cultures and
languages and dialects etc....and WE have to learn to cope with all ...paleontolgoical
thinking won't
exactly create a cutting edge educational experience. Grades and absence
of frustration are
not the goal.... education is.
school admin reflects the community....in ours the academics
and even the band
get as much note ( even more if measured per dollar of revenue...) as
sports.
suggest you use your energies to help the kids find some useful websites
for
learning to communicate ( also = listening ) with others less like their
suburban cranbrook like yuppie
clone kids !!
_______
From: D.A.
> get over it. the earth revolves around the sun ....not the united
states.
Oh, come on, Dave... blaze' blaze' This is the answer the
gov't gives to avoid
issues!> school admin reflects the community....in ours the academics
and even the band
> get as much note ( even more if measured per dollar
of revenue...) as sports.
Now that's a shame!> suggest you use your energies to
help the kids find some useful websites for
> learning to communicate ( also = listening ) with others
less like their
> suburban cranbrook like yuppie clone kids !!
Again, not cost effective (especially for THIS POOR, CITY-BRED
and ALONE Mother
who is trying to do the best she can for her child so that he doesn't
wind up in
the same rut as she... what's a yuppie like, Dave? What are suburbs like?
Is it
nice? You sound like you know... *G*
_______
From B. M.
Are you the Dave Reed that is a professor at MTU?
_______
From: D. R.
no. that would be intellectually dishonest. nor am i a 'foreigner'...just
think
we all need to open our minds before opening our mouths and teach personal
responsbility rather than whining.
_______
From: C. E. R.
Maybe the answer lies in meeting halfway -- the students making a more
strenuous effort to understand, and the professors working with linguists
to translate what they know to colloquial written English as syllabi or
textbooks, and making more strenuous efforts to improve their spoken English.
As a Tech student right now, I can say that a lot of students
don't bother to *try* to understand, they just complain. However, there
are some of us who ARE trying, and are still having trouble. So far I
thin kI've had 3 foreign instructors. Two of them I had no trouble understanding,
although I did have to learn to listen to the accent. The third however,
would often ask my class for the word he was missing, and most of the
time it would take quite a while to guess it, because we didn't know what
concept he was trying to teach. It's hard enough to deal with very different
accents, but those can be figured out by the students with a little effort.
It's MUCH harder to try to guess what your calculus teacher is trying
to say when he's covering an entirely new concept.
_______
From: D.R.
nice note christi.
when i encounter problems in business communications i respectfully ask
the
speaker something like..
'could you please repeat that last sentence....and perhaps go a little
slower so i
can be sure i'm clear on what you mean"
aka 'personal responsibility'.
and what about the notes and written materials ?? and what about requests
for
teacher conferences. surely if a difficult to understand prof gets bombarded
with
appt requests he/she will get the drift and work on getting it better
the first time.
_______
From: Kathy
No one is addressing the basis for why our schools and universities are
using foreign born instructors. Are our educational system and values
so out of wack that our nation cannot produce people who have the knowledge
and ability and the motivation to teach? The ones who have the expertise
go into better paying positions, forcing our schools to go outside the
US to fill positions.
_______
From: D. R.
in case you haven't been out of nw lower in a while .....there is a thing
in
the world called 'cultural diversity' going on !!!
why is because they are advanced. ( we ) americans don't know it all even
though they like to think so.
_______
From: D. A.
Now see! We're right back to where I started from...
So what's the solution?
_______
From: M.
Have we made the wrong choice in selecting MTU? Are there enough high
quality, English speaking professors for my son to get a good engineering
education at MTU? If this situation is so bad, should we be contacting
out MI State reps and looking into an investigation of the quality of
education MI taxpayers are funding? It seems to be time for the MTU administration
to make a formal reply on the Parent's Net and clear this up. On a follow-up
note: Has the curriculum changed such that in-coming Freshmen (2000) have
a foreign language requirement?
_______
From: L. W.
This is the point. Education. Education does involve both instructors
and
students. But you are seeming to ask hundreds of students to delay their
education for months or years while they learn to communicate with a number
of different professors, from a number of different cultures, speaking
a
number of different languages. The most common language of the students
is
American English. The school is an American school. The funding is supplied
by students, parents, and taxpayers -- all similarly schooled in English.
Thus, before someone is placed in a position to teach a
class, he or she
should have enough of a command of the English language to be understood
by
the majority of class. Not perfect, not unaccented, not even close --
but
enough to communicate the subject and understand the questions raised
by the
students. suggest you use your energies to help the kids find some useful
websites
for learning to communicate ( also = listening ) with others less like
their
suburban cranbrook like yuppie clone kids !!
I am afraid find this above comment offensive. You don't
know me (us) well
enough to assume such stereotypical bias!
_______
From: D. R.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....stereotypical bias....wonder where i got that
from ???
some good points.
_______
From: L.W.
May I assume that you have not had instructors who did not even understand
that question? I have. Twice. Add in another professor who understood
perfectly, but refused to explain.
Many of the texts are written by people who know what they
are talking
about, and hence do not feel the need to explain what is (to them) obvious.
Many modern computer books have the same fault, and even in my own
profession we see the same problem. When you don't understand, you go
the to
prof -- but if the prof cannot communicate, you are left in confusion.
They may indeed improve with time, but how many students
will be their
victims during the learning process?
I would suggest that there should be some minimum standards
for professors
to teach, just as there are minimums for a student to get into college
or
into a class in the first place.
_______
From: D. A.
Unfortunately, Larry (you don't mind my calling you Larry, do you?), we
can't
even get teachers screened for past criminal records, etc.! FOX 2 News
did a
story on just how many working teachers in Michigan actually have criminal
records for child abuse and the like... it's unbelievable and quite pitiful!
The education system just does not want to be bothered with any of it...
_______
From: D. R.
it would be interesting to survey mit, cal berkeley and a few other places
to
see what the related situations are. my limited personal experience is
that northern
michigan generally is a bit provincial about these sorts of things.....the
u.p.
is not exactly the center for cultural diversity.
perhaps mtu and all could be more forthright in 'full disclosure'
or 'we' could
be more diligent in screening our school selections.
also wonder how many a students are complaining compared
to the others ? are
there any 'a's to english speaking americans in the subject classrooms
? how are they
doing it ?
_______
From: L.W.
D.A. wrote:
> Unfortunately, Larry (you don't mind my calling you Larry, do you?),
Not a problem! <grin>
> we can't
> even get teachers screened for past criminal records, etc.! FOX 2
News
did a
> story on just how many working teachers in Michigan actually have
criminal
> records for child abuse and the like... it's unbelievable and quite
pitiful!
> The education system just does not want to be bothered with any of
it...
Other than the few I referred to in other postings, I have
not had a problem
with foreign-born instructors and their command of the language. I don't
know all at MTU, but the few I know have more than sufficient command
of
English to make themselves understood and to understand the students.
I had not heard the Fox2 report -- scary! I try to get to
know my children's
teachers.
Part of the problem in education (and the reason a lot of
people pursue
alternative education) is that the school communities tend not to listen
to
parents. Our schools have "block" scheduling, which is hurting
my #2 and
#3 -- some schools do a better job if implementing this, but ours is
unresponsive -- they have their agenda, and it does not include the needs
of
all the students.
With the growing shortage of teachers, the problems you
mention will only
escalate. Hopefully pay will increase, since I have a couple who want
to
teach. <grin>
_______
From: "Dennis K. Walikainen" <dkwalika@mtu.edu>
I just realized that Larry wanted me to respond.
As a grad student here in the early 90s, I didn't have any experience
with faculty who were difficult to understand. As a writer who interviews
faculty and staff for stories, I have had very few instances where I had
trouble understanding someone. My solution was to keep asking for clarification
until I got the information I needed.
Sorry I can't help you more.
Tue, 21 Mar 2000
From: L. B.
Hi,
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Let's lighten thing up. Have a nice day everyone?
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_______
From: "Dennis K. Walikainen" <dkwalika@mtu.edu>
Parents and Guardians:
Stephen Bowen, our VP for Instruction, sent the following letter for ParentNET-L:
The difficulties students have working with instructors
who are not native
English speakers as discussed on mtuparent-l are of significant concern
to
the faculty and administration at Michigan Tech. It is clear that most
of
you involved in the discussion already understand both the realities of
the
international talent pool in sciences and engineering, and the challenges
we confront as we build a world-class faculty like ours here at Michigan
Tech. I'm writing to let you know what we currently do to make students'
interactions with international faculty and GTA's not only less trying,
but
more beneficial.
We never hire faculty without an extensive interview process
that includes
many meetings with individual faculty and administrators and the search
committee, and a lecture presented to the faculty. If there is any
question of the applicant's ability to communicate in the classroom, the
faculty are extremely unlikely to offer an appointment. It would quickly
come back to haunt them when frustrated students start coming to them
for
supplemental help (which they are encouraged to do, but there are only
so
many hours in the day). In fact, our faculty from overseas are often in
the group rated most highly by students on their evaluation of instruction
forms at the end of each term. The point at which we do have occasional
problems is with international Graduate Teaching Assistants (GTA's). We
depend on GTA's for supplemental instruction less than many universities,
but we do involve them as the primary instructors in some entry level
classes. Across the United States, more than half the graduate students
pursuing degrees in engineering and many sciences are from overseas. They
are attracted to our superior educational system and the economic benefits
of technological degrees. Typically, they stay in the US after graduation
and help fuel our economy. Some people question the ethics of this practice
inasmuch as we are skimming the cream of bright young scholars from many
underdeveloped countries, but that is a different question.
To be admitted as a graduate student at Michigan Tech, applicants
who are
not native English speakers must submit scores from the Test of English
as
a Foreign Language (TOEFL). Currently, we do not accept students with
scores below 550. The TOEFL is a written test and does not provide
reliable information about speaking ability. Thus, any international
student who would be a GTA must take the SPEAK test administered by our
Center for Teaching, Learning and Faculty Development. If the results
do
not establish a good command of spoken English, the student is referred
to
our Writing Center for coaching. Department Chairs are notified and
generally do not put this student in the classroom until he/she has passed
a re-test. In addition, we try to help international GTA's acculturate
to
the American system of higher education, especially classroom etiquette
and
student - teacher professional relationships. These are very different
in
some countries from which our students come. To be candid, some groups
on
campus are more patient with this training process than others, and we
are
working to make it more universal.
The exigencies of scheduling classes can result in an instructor
with less
than perfect command of English being assigned to teach. Department Chairs
sometimes find student demand for a class is greater than predicted, and
there is an urgent need for additional instructors at the last minute.
Often the native English speaking faculty will double up, and sometimes
the
Chair takes an extra class. When those resources are exhausted, we may
turn to GTA's. Of course we would not put an instructor in the classroom
if we didn't think they could communicate clearly. But the faculty are
more experienced at listening to accents than are students, and sometimes
we underestimate student difficulties. If students find themselves in
a
class with at GTA that they just cannot understand, they need to let the
Department Chair know right away. The Chairs are very responsive to
student difficulties and can take effective action.
On the whole, our University is substantially enriched by
the 8.4% of
students and the faculty who are from overseas. They are typically very
bright and dedicated, and bring different assumptions and perspectives
to
the learning process that help to challenge students and faculty alike.
With the exception of an occasional mistake as cited above, I believe
that
straining to understand a different accent is a small price to pay for
the
benefits our international students and faculty bring to the Michigan
Tech
community.
Stephen H. Bowen
Vice Provost for Instruction
Michigan Technological University
_______
From: D.R.
Thank you for taking the time and interest to address this concern. Perhaps
these and other
issues of note could be part of an faq page on the mtu.edu site and when
they
first arise
someone could redirect folks....however the discussion has been useful
i think
in helping parents understand the variety of views and approaches to what
are
seemingly the same 'problem'.
At some level we need to have 'trust' in our institutions
and accept the
inherent weaknesses
of standardization in the interest of balancing educational opportunity
and
economy ( of scale).
If we would all start with the basic premise that the university
knows what
it's doing and has
a rationale for the way things are done, frustration would be minimized.
ps; your opening paragraph is a credit to your 'organizational behavior'
prof
!!!
_______
From: L.W.
I found Mr. Bowen's summary quite good and encouraging. I would hope that
this information is made known to the students . . . if so, then, as Mr.
Reed has pointed out, it is up to them.
Thanks!
_______
From: J.C.
I found Mr. Bowen's summary quite good and encouraging.
I wholeheartedly concur with this.
I discussed this briefly with my son who's a ME major at
Tech. He pointed
out that there will be non-English-speaking associates in any professional
group, and it is better sooner rather than later to learn to communicate
with them.
I wondered at his insight until I remembered that the small
engineering
concern at which he spent last summer working/interning comprised two
US-born and two foreign-born professional engineers. So, he's seen
real-world examples of what Tech seems to be preparing him for.
Also, as a chem tutor at the chem learning centers, he has
been given
special instruction in how to refer students whose learning problem stems
in
part from a language barrier. Thus the learning centers may be a good
resource for students who've encountered this problem.
Parenthetically, I hope it's only coincidence that we've
seen so many
requests to unsubscribe from the list since the non-English-speaking
instructor issue came up. I've found the discussion, though bristly at
times, to be most productive.
Wed, 22 Mar 2000
From: D.R.
Agreed with jim et al....the point of 'discussion' is to evolve from
initial bias/opinion and perceptions...often based on lack of knowledge,
empathy or focus....to a better understanding and if necessary
implementation or corrective, preventive measures ( including self audit
)
and in this case that is what has happened.
The addition/use of archives and the contribution of mtu 'officials'
completed the loop on this particular issue and all contributors should
be recognized for their involvement....it is better to be involved and
a little frustrated ....than to avoid the discussion and occasional
discomfort that accompanies it. ( And as we are all learning the email
medium lacks intonation, body language, lag time and other important
aspects of interpersonal communication that can often exacerebate
strongly worded submittals.
Now.... will we have a similar policy statement regarding the hiring,
administration and management of the resident assistants ? After all
the kids spend more time in the dorm room than the classroom, so presumably
it is pretty important.
Thanks
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